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8.19.2013

Quick comment on Green trade spurred by a comment

A couple of comments on the "Tbirds games in Portland" post made me want to follow it up with a little thought on Green as a player development.

Anonymous wrote "With draft picks and trades like that no wonder why the team has been bottom dwellers for the recent past."

Then I assume a differnt anonymous followed it up with "They haven't drafted worth a crap for a while now. I actually don't have a problem with the returns being obtained for Sanvido, Johnson & Green. That's fair market value in my eyes. My issue is that the team overpaid on the front end. Sanvido was a 1st round bantam pick. Johnson cost a 4th round bantam pick to acquire. Green was a 2nd round bantam pick. My question to you is what would you have them do? All I can see is that until (if they ever) draft well, they need to continuously purge the roster of bad acquisitions to make room for new players and give them a chance to turn this organization around. It's an unproductive loop until (if they ever) get it right."

Anyone that knows me can tell you my belief on why this team has struggled the last few years.  Bad and unlucky drafting (players getting injured).  So this person and I are on the same page here.  But, while I don't completely disagree with the rest of their argument, I do totally believe in what someone said a little further down in the comments.

"sometimes people just don't pan out"

It happens in Seattle, it happens to all teams in the WHL (some more then others).

But the fact this is being discussed about Green is what got me to

Kelly McCrimmon, the owner, GM, and coach in Brandon that traded for Green, had the following to say on Luber's Lounge (http://luberslounge.blogspot.com/2013/08/wheat-kings-add-green-from-t-birds.html)

"He's a guy with a lot of upside and a player we thought was worth taking a chance on and giving an opportunity," said McCrimmon, "At that time, we was a guy that was highly regarded by a lot of teams and a guy, because of his size, had great potential and great upside."


Its the second part of his statement.  He basically says that at the time of the bantam draft, a lot of teams were very high on Green, and felt there was a lot of upside to him.  So it wasn't a case of Seattle misreading his talent, or potential talent, and selecting when no one else would have.  It appears like a lot of teams felt the upside was there, and in this case, the upside hasn't come yet.  Of course, there can be a discussion on why that upside didn't come around.

But in the end of the day, this type of potential upside sometimes just happens.

16 comments :

Anonymous said...

Right on. Green could still go on to be a force in this league anyway. Every draft is a risk, even when guys look like the next big star. Just look at Alex Forsberg.

Anonymous said...

It's not that you are going to be right on every draft pick, of course not, it's that there's a really bad trend here that they've been wrong on soooo many draft picks. And then not signing Ryan Gropp was inexcusable.

Mr Tell13 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mr Tell13 said...

So I guess the tbirds should just pull a Portland to make sure their draft picks sign with them ? or maybe just offer cash?

Anonymous said...

Ok lets go over this again before Mr. Tell gets anyone to believe that it takes 'pulling a Portland' in order to have a strong draft. 24 PLAYERS were selected in the first round of the 2011 draft. 22 of 24 signed their entry level draft. In 2011, Russ Farwell already had built himself a reputation of bantam draft day icompetence and took a really stupid chance on Ryan Gropp. In fact, he picked one of very few players available that would likely take 'pulling a Portland' in order to lure this particular player to the WHL and everyone knew it at the time. If that isnt enough, the remaining players selected by Seattle in that draft haven't given us much and there's a chance that Seattle may not have anyone from the 2011 class on the ice this season. There is no excuse for that.

Jon said...

For Mr. Anonymous above. I am not going to argue the bantam draft results, or the Gropp pick (see my other posts on that one).

I really dont mind the comment about the remaining players from the draft haven't given us much. But please find me a list of players from that draft that have given or helped their teams? Of the 22 that signed in the 1st round, which do you feel had amazing 1st years as 16 year olds. I can name a couple, but that isn't much.

I also don't agree that Seattle might not have any of the 2011 draft picks this season. I am going to totally go out on a limb here and say we will have 4 of them (assuming none get traded)

Mr Tell13 said...

@anon 2:59
You get to blame Farwell for picking Gropp OR not signing him, not both. I would also like to see any kind of source that show that "everyone in the whl" knew that he was that risky of a pick. You can argue that picking him at #6 is too risky, but I don't think anyone on this board has enough knowledge to say that no one else in the first round was going to do the same as Farwell.

As far as not signing him, what was Farwell supposed to do? Song and dance? And if "pulling a Portland hits too close to home, lets just say "pulling a Windsor". Personnally I would rather not have the team cheat.....that's just me.

As far as the 2011 draft class not contributing, lets be real, as Jon mentionned, how many kids of that year made an impact on their teams. It is WAY to early to say. Douglas is going to be at camp, Wolf is coming back and Holub will most likely make the team. That is not mentionning a couple of centers that (I believe) are 17 that will get a shot at a spot on the roster (either drsfted guys or listed).

Anonymous said...

Well on the whole they have drafted pathetically for a long time, they've had some recent success, like Theodore in the 4th round, Troock (talent is there, but often injured) guess that's it for the draft. However, they have got some good players through the Euro draft in Lipsbergs and Delnov and through listing or trades such as Honey and Jerret Smith. If they promote whoever was behind drafting Theodore and eject whoever is behind their continued over emphasis on size = potential maybe they will turn things around, oh yeah being able to draft and sign Barzal is most fortunate, maybe those awful seasons can actually pay off once in awhile even for Farwell.

Anonymous said...

I love the hate. I love how angry we can get about this team and I love the fact that people care enough to complain. But if the birds end up 4th or higher in the standings this season, like some on other forums have predicted, I think at that point people better shut up about the bad drafting. It happened. I know, but a good system can screw up sometimes and Seattle fans are notorious whiners when it comes to sports of all kinds. Go Birds!

Anonymous said...

Agreed with the above, despite a few questionable drafts this team is projected to be more talented than we have seen in quite some time. Russ must be doing something right...

Anonymous said...

A few questionable drafts? How long have you followed this team? It goes back much much further than that. Russ is said to have made some changes so at least there is some hope in that. With the number 1 pick in the draft in a year when the best prospect in ages comes along, yes even Russ managed to draft Barzal, and he's supposed to be a heck of a player. That doesn't really say much about Russ's ability to draft. Hopefully the other players drafted the last few years will yield a great crop and if so I'd be happy to jump off the Farwell can't draft wagon, but he will have to prove it, he's already proven otherwise for many many years. Here's hoping he's learned something and the changes work out. Jeez you guys sure hate criticism.

Anonymous said...

Not really sure what part of "I love the hate" made you think I hated criticism. All I am saying is that I am hoping this year will give us a reason not to wallow anymore. If you cant agree with that (and I am sure you can fellow t-bird fan)then I am not sure what to say, or why beyond pure masochism you would follow this team. That is really all I meant by that comment. We all agree there have been some terrible drafts, I just hope (and believe) that things can change. That said, if things go south again this year I will join you once again on that hate wagon friend!

Marc S said...

All GMs hit and miss with trades and draft picks. The recent history for Farwell isn't very good especially with the first round picks, you really need those guys to pan out most of the time. But I'm willing to see how the team does this year and how Kolesar, Barzal, Douglas, and Bear do. The past is the past and I want the team I love to build on last season and grab a top 4 seed for this year's playoffs.

I'm very excited to go watch some hockey tomorrow.

Mr Tell13 said...

@ anon 6:10

I don't hate criticism at all, but I also like to express myself when I think someone is (in my opinion) of base. That is what a discussion is about.

One of the things that people say is that the tbirds drafted poorly for a while. My first question to that is: What is a "good yield" for a draft then?
5 players contributing? Seems unrealistic
4 players ? seems a bit much
3 players? ok, lets go with that.
Please find me a team that consistently has 3 16 y/o playing regularly on their lineup. For the tbirds, Hauf and Theodore are eating huge minutes on D; Holub, Douglas and Wolf will have a shot at spot on the lineup and contribute. This year's crop of Barzal, Kolesar and Bear should be on the team. Considering that Green was traded and Wray dropped, I guess the tbirds are on a good trend.

The bad 1st round pick. Yes their was some stinkers, heck the whole 2006 (Chaffin year) netted nothing. Again, I think the trend is going up. Since Sanvido (a servicable guy) they picked Troock (when healthy=good), Hauf (small upside on offense but growing into good d-man), Gropp (not signed) and Barzal + Kolesar (should be ok).

The other thing that gets me is the "That doesn't really say much about Russ's ability to draft". You know its all fine and good to be passive agressive and all, but it always seems like EVERY bad pick is exclusively Farwell's fault, but the good picks just happen magically. Cuz you know that a bunch of guys passed on Calvin Pickard (you know, the guy with a few WHL records)before the tbirds chose him. Same thing with Theodore, who was a third round pick in the bantam draft.


Anonymous said...

I'm the anonymous who mentioned Theodore and others such as Troock as successes in his draft. Barzal was the consensus number one pick and obvious pick, yes he managed to get it right as far as we know and I'm glad he picked Barzal but most other GM's in this league would have picked him so that doesn't demonstrate an ability to dig up talent by itself. Theodore in the what 3rd round or 4th, that does.

Anonymous said...

Kolesar is an absolute dud. Big first round swing and a miss for Farwell once again. Sheeeesh!

When is he going to get it through his thick skull that sometimes size is just size.

Unbelievable we waste a first round pick on this guy!

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