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Hockey Challenge 2014

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Follow up...

Lots of good banter going on... Needless to say I don't agree with some or most of the things being said but I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with me. I do get irritated with people who think opinion is fact and don't support their opinion with facts or at least attempt to submit evidence.... but I'm not banning anyone... I just don't understand why there is this small group of fans who think it's "cool" to be negative about everything. If it is so bad... why are you a fan? This darn broccoli just continues to taste like crap... but darn it... I guess I'll just keep eating it and just complain about it.

So let's just take these in order.

"Nielson is garbage. Shappert got destroyed on a hit he was trying to make. We have the worst examples of leaders on this team i have seen in a long time. When you have two d men playing center and wing for your team it speaks volumes of where your team is heading. We have no on ice leadership and no identity. Until we resolve these issues we could score 10 goals and manage a way to lose."

- Nielsen is spelled with an "e" first of all, and second Schappert is spelled like this. Third... If you told me that Nielsen wasn't "producing points" sure I'll go along with that. If you want to say he is playing poorly... I'll agree to disagree but he certainly isn't "garbage". Players don't go from being solid to garbage over the summer so I disagree on that one. Schappert didn't get "destroyed"... guys give hits and take hits all the time... he stood a guy up at the blue line and probably got the worst of the hit. How would that determine the value or worth of a player? Is a player only good if he's never been on the losing side of a hit? Fact of the matter is... neither one of us are in the locker room so to speak on "leadership" is probably a silly point. D men playing wing really just means we have too many defensemen on the roster and not enough wings. People... including you... love to say things like "speaks volumes of where your team is heading" but you intentionally leave out a definition. I take risks and make predictions... put your money where your mouth is and define what you mean rather than intentionally being vague.

"With that said, I think after watching last night's game, there are some things to be adressed on the team, young or not.

I am also tired of the "fire the coach" thing. the display of some fans behind the bench (where they screamed after sumner) was shamefull.

to see haber and Flemming up front is kind of telling of the state of the team right now.

We need a big natural center on this team. A guy that knows how to consistently win face -offs. Lisday Nielson is a fine center on the second line, but we now are sorrely missing O'brien and even Boyer.

on the plus side, i think that Alos,Muth, Sena, Jacobs and Schapp are playing really good in this situation-Also on the plus side, Ramsay seems to be a great addition so far. Not super fast, but it seems like the younger kids are more confident with him in the line up."

- I'm not sure what the big deal is seeing Haber and Fleming up front. They obviously don't think Tutt and Doty are ready for a ton of ice time and they want to get these guys on the ice. With the addition of Ramsay... you have more depth on the back end. We do need a big center... I totally agree... but not this season. I don't think we should sacrifice any assets this season or for the future for this season.

"End of the day this coach needs to go."

- I really... really wish we could get more intelligent comments. I've said before and I'll say it again. If you're going to tell me that Sumner should go or Farwell should go... thats fine with me, you are entitled to your opinion... but at least back it up with something. If you're going to believe in something you might as well find an intelligent reason to do so.

"no because it true and you just can't come to grips with it. Write all you want to try to justify keeping him but he still needs to go."

- This is basically an extension of the last post.... and another point here. Why are you grinding the axe with me? I have no control or influence on front office. If you want to complain, you you just do it to someone who might care.

"I'm not going to comment on anything here except you said Neilson wins faceoffs..... He has not done that well at all this year. Other than that rant on."

- Again Nielsen is spelled with an "e"... I don't have faceoff numbers, so I'm willing to concede that you might possibly be right but that doesn't change the fact that he IS a good faceoff kid... so even if the stats were true for what you are saying... my response would be that I would expect that to change.

"I'm not in the fire Sumner camp, I like him but his results aren't beyond question. My problem is with the man at the top, Farwell. Not because he is awful, but because he is the epitome of mediocrity. For me, Mediocrity is OK for awhile, but I'm not OK with it indefinitely and Farwell's been at the helm for a looooong time. Way too long for my preference. My patience meter is pegged out. If Farwell's Birds were a motorcycle gang their slogan would be FMMF forever mediocrity mediocrity forever. On the players, not long ago your prediction for Rai was "you can safely pencil him in for 40 assists and 20 goals as the absolute basement for his production" My response was he needs to be playing with folks that can put the puck in the net to get that many assists. Right now he's on pace for 18 goals and 9 assists for the season. Its early but I'll go on record right now, no way he gets 40 assists this year unless he is traded to another team. Nielsen isn't a 100 point player and I never dreamed he ever would be, not that he isn't of value to the team but right now it would be nice to get more scoring out of him, he's on pace for 0 goals and 27 assists for the year. Schappert is a -7, on pace for -56. No these 20 year olds aren't going to tear up the league. Thing is without them we'd really be in trouble. On the bright side wow on Jacobs and Pickard!"

- Results aren't beyond question... I'll agree with that. I don't mean to imply that his record is perfect and without question. I'm just saying is isn't the record of a coach you fire. As a longtime Tbirds fan... I can't really argue with you on the mediocrity thing. I will say this though... do you really think Farwell is sitting in his office thinking to himself "gee... how can we just be decent and nothing better." Doubtful. So I agree with your point to an extent. On predictions... Come on man... gotta give me a break here. The team has only played 8 games, that is just a hair over 10% of the season. Do you also think that Jason Bast is going to score 85 goals and 124 points? Give me a little bit of time before you start bashing predictions. 40 assists might be high... probably what I should have said was that 60 points was the basement. I'm still pretty comfortable with that prediction... maybe closer to 30-30. He will still get a ton of ice time on the PP and he'll play with Parker some and Jacobs some. I'm pretty comfortable with that. Plus/Minus is also something you need to give some time. Last year Warg and Sena were on the same pace and ended the season not even close to the pace so... give it some time. Might not get a LOT better... but I don't expect Schappert to be -56. If he is... you can tell me I was wrong.

"I was at the game sat, it was brutal to watch Jacobs is a one man band out there Rai was disgracful no heart at all. Acolatse feed Beach 4 lefts that was worth the price of admision."

- Not much to respond to here... I agree with this.

"Good blog Tyler. And many good points. If I could ask Farwell anything it would be, why are we carrying 3 goalies? My other question would be, is HE happy with our older players and going to stand pat, or does he see the same weaknesses that we do and will try and address them at the deadline? I'm totally happy with our younger core of players. From 18 down IMO we look pretty darn good. And my BIG question, what the heck are we going to do if the flood hits during a game? Do they have a plan in place that maybe they could make us fans aware of? Thanks again for all the work you do on this blog. Always good info!"

- Russ and the other WHL GM's are in Kelowna right now for two days of meetings. My guess is that he hasn't received an offer he likes yet to unload DeSerres. Would you rather he wait for the best deal possible or just trade him right away for like a 6th round bantam pick? You can always trade a guy for less than full value right away if you want to get rid of him badly enough.... but why do that when you can give Jake playing time, which benefits your team, and get maximum value. Having said that... maybe at these meetings he finds a partner to dance with. As for the flooding... I have absolutely no idea. I'm trying not to think about it. Back to Key Arena? Everett home games? No idea...

"So it sounds like we are back where we start before the long winded writing and an irrartional attempt to keep the coach & GM. Just because then are nice to you and provide information does not entitile them to keep there jobs. Look at he attendence numbers this year new building and still no fans. That equalls a problem why are there no fans coming to the games it never used to be this way before the current coach. It's getting harder and harder to renew the ticket every year when the don't seems to care about winning."

- This is another pathetic argument. Actually it is a couple of really poor arguments. I don't think I ever said that because Russ and Rob have been very cooperative with me that it meant they should keep their jobs. If I implied that... it certainly isn't what I meant. Second... look around the entire league before you bash "attendance". The numbers all around the league are down. Everett drew only 4200 on Sunday... Portland is good this season and drew 2600 on Saturday. This isn't just a Seattle issue. If everyone in the league was enjoying better than normal numbers and the Tbirds were one of the few teams that were down you might have an argument but my guess is that you didn't even bother to look up this "fact". Why are you bothering to threaten your tickets to me? Why in the world would I care whether you renew your tickets? I hear this argument all the time and it's just silly. "I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll cancel my season tickets...." Haha... go ahead... cancel... you aren't going to get an objection from this fan.


Anonymous said...

Here is a stat: the attendance is down 29% since 1996-1997 seasons one year after Farwell started sorry could not find attendance for 1995-1996 season compared with 2008-2009. That is a staggering number. But let's not blame the economy its worse if you use the 07-08 season number and it's even worse if you use the 06-07 season number and we have lost a basketball team since then there should be more money to spend on sports. If you produce a sub par team year after year people don't come back but the few die hard.
The moral of the story they need to make a change.

Thunnex said...

Good... in fact... Great. I'm all for encouraging points of view based on facts. You think they should make a change because attendance has been consistently down. Fair enough.

Tbird fan said...

fact is Nielsen is a poor captain and would barely make a 3rd line center. Not a 1st or second line 20. fact is Shappert is a poor defensmen who can hardly skate pass or shoot. Another waste of a 20. Fact is if you put both players on waivers neither one would be claimed by another WHL team. I dont know what kind of blinders you put on when you go to the games but i have whatched the WHL for over 15 years and seen many good players come and go. These two are not good players. All you have to do is watch the on ice verbal communication captains and alternates have with their team. I know you ask if its so bad why do you go? I pay my money to watch hockey because i love WHL hockey. With that said as a fan i contribute to the revenue of my team and as a fan i have the right to voice my displeasure with the on ice perfomance of players on the team. With no fans buying tickets there would be no team in Kent. If you don't like the opinions of other fans i would not suggest having a blog for fans to post comments.

Thunnex said...

Couple things... One, you still present no "facts". Opinion is not fact.

Two, my point is I couldn't care less whether you pay for tickets or not so that "fact" is irrelevant.

Third, nobody ever said I didn't "like" the opinions of other fans. In fact I openly encourage it... I'm just also encouraging people (you) to articulate intelligent points and try to have supporting evidence to back it up.

FACT is... that neither one of us will ever know whether a team would claim Nielsen or Schappert if they were released because that won't happen. Very convenient to use a hypothetical situation to support your opinion.

Look... I'm not at war with you "anonymous" nor am I at war with anyone else. I'm just saying... let's try to RAISE the level of discourse. Let's try to be better and smarter than "he's stupid, fire him... he sucks trade him". Tbird fans want to claim they are an intelligent bunch... I'm saying... prove it to me "anonymous".

4thebirds said...

Thanks Tyler, I too think Farwell is waiting for the best offer. It would just give me peace of mind to know that! LOL

To Anonymous you are comparing apples and oranges in the attendance. Seating capacity is too different, economy is way too different.

To TBird fan, Nielsen not being a good captain is your opinion, not fact. Pretty much like everything else you posted.

Anonymous said...

I'm on the fence in this argument... I am not pleased with the product on ice. But I expected that this year.... We all knew the T-birds could not afford a bad season to rebuild at the Key Arena. But now in Kent we can afford to rebuild for a real contending team in the future. I really don't think we need to trash the players for what's going on. Schappert and Neilsen catch most of the flack for basically being 20 year olds.... They aren't top tier players but they are trying to win, we can pick up cast off 20 year olds from other teams and it still won't improve anything on the ice so it's useless.......... On the other hand being a T-birds ticket holder for so long, you can't mask the fact that they T-birds have been the standard of mediocrity in the league forever. And the proof lies in our pretty empty rafters. Do we need a change? Most teams probably would have a long time ago in our situation. I definently see why people are down on Farwell. As for Sumner I think we need to wait and see how the young players turn out. This season was going to be bad we knew this after last year ended. I say kick back and hope the young guys get valuable experience and give us hope for a bright future instead of bashing someone online for giving his thoughts on the T-birds.....Andy Kemper dealt with this the past 3 years for being positive about the Hawks'.... Good luck Tyler your in for a long year.

Anonymous said...

Since Rob Sumner has been coach compared to rest of the US Division 04-05-Present.

04-05 first
05-06 second
06-07 third
07-08 third
08-09 third

04-05 fourth
05-06 fourth
06-07 second
07-08 first Lost Western Conference final
08-09 first

04-05 fifth (coach fired)
05-06 fifth (new coach)
06-07 fourth
07-08 second Won Memorial Cup
08-09 second

04-05 second
05-06 fifth
06-07 fifth
07-08 fifth (coach not resigned)
08-09 fifth

04-05 third
05-06 first Lost Western Conference final
06-07 first
07-08 fourth (new coach)
08-09 fourth (coach fired)

So in the US Division Any team that has not gotten better, the coach has been let go with exception of Seattle. Seattle has never been as good as the first year that Rob coached. I will agree they have never been last but is mediocrity OK.
That is the real question.

Thunnex said...

I think this is at least a good argument... backed by some actual facts.

So I'm not dismissing this as a point of view... certainly valid.

I will also say that you need to have some context to go with the placements. True the teams that "declined" got rid of their coaches but they also always finished 4th or 5th, something that hasn't happened with a Sumner led team.

Also... I totally agree, mediocrity is frustrating... believe me, I'm with you guys on that.... but here is the problem.

Even if I concede that Sumner is only a "mediocre" coach (which I'm not sure I have reached that point of conclusion). Who out there are you going to get who you KNOW is a better coach. It isn't as though there are dozens of super high quality coaches sitting around waiting for a WHL job. (let's not go with the "bench" argument, we don't even know whether Turner wants to be a head coach... so skip that argument).

This is what I'm looking for though. I don't really agree with the conclusion... but I can get down with the notion of the argument.

Anonymous said...

The next question is while they have never finished last compared to the other teams is that only because of the amount of talent on the team compare with the rest of the US Division. Will need to pull the amount of NHL daft picks that were on the team
Compared to the US teams that finish below them. While we can’t learn everything by that alone a coach with more NHL draft picks should have a better team then one who doesn’t if he is a good coach.

Anonymous said...

So Seattle has more money and a greater population then the majority of the WHL and they are in the bottom 5 consistently in attendance. That speaks volumes about the product.

Thunnex said...

More money?? Really??? Got any facts for me to back that one up?

Anonymous said...

Go look up median income for Seattle vs. the rest of the cities in the WHL or give me more data on economy is way too different. This go both ways. Do a little research and get back with me.

Thunnex said...

I misunderstood then. You said Seattle had "more money" before saying anything about population.

So... my bad...

That still doesn't really mean anything. If anything... being in a big city hurts Seattle... just my opinion.

Thunnex said...

btw... you're still shooting yourself in the foot here.

Tbirds Attendance Ranks -

08/09 - 12th
07/08 - 15th
06/07 - 13th
05/06 - 11th
04/05 - 10th
03/04 - 9th

Do I need to continue?

So they haven't been "bottom 5" in any of those seasons.

Want to try again?

Look man... relax. I realize you and I don't agree, but thats OK!

I can't take you seriously though when you aren't coming at me with a more fact based opinion. When you throw things out there like "and they are in the bottom 5 consistently in attendance" and that is just completely 100% false... what am I supposed to think?

Anonymous said...

Brad Haber!
first goal of the year.

Anonymous said...

Hey Tyler! What happened tonight? I didn't get to the game can you enlighten me? The boys must have been off a little eh?

Mike said...

Tyler, just a correction... Tutt played 3 straight games after an ankle injury to begin the season.. he broke his right thumb in practice last week which is why he's been sitting out. He starts practicing again tomorrow.

Anonymous said...

Who cares about Attendance they won't have any fans if they keep losing games. That's right they already are little over 3,000 last night.

Anonymous said...

WOW ..... In my opinion Andy Kemper in Portland is a corperate "yes - man " with little or NO opinions or thoughts. I like the passion and insight, but I agree with Tyler, keep it professional! More money? what does that mean? Are you looking at attendence or % of arena filled? because Medicine Hat only averages 4,006 but it is 100% capacity!

Bob in Vancouver

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